This is what the LORD says: "For three sins of Gaza, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because she took captive whole communities and sold them to Edom, I will send fire upon the walls of Gaza that will consume her fortresses. Amos 1:6-7
I don't believe this scripture really has any relevance as far as God's plan is concerned anymore. Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. However, I'm sure there are people in Israel that are reading this. I don't really know what to say when it comes to Israel. I am truly on the fence. They appear to be a free and democratic, tolerant society, and compared to the rest of the middle east, they are. However there isn't true religious freedom there. Not if you are a Christian who is trying to fulfill the Great Commission:
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:18-20
If you are trying to fulfill the Great Commission in Israel, you will likely be barred from reentry into the country if you leave. I don't believe that it is God's plan for a physical state of Israel in the Middle East anymore, at least not in the sense of His twelve tribes. God's Kingdom is now a Spiritual Kingdom.
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." John 18:36
With that said, I feel that there is a great need for a strong democracy in the middle east. I also think that it is good that in Israel there is a chance to see the great historical sights from the bible. There is a big difference between reading the constitution in a book, and seeing the actual constitution. There is a big difference between seeing the White House on TV, and actually walking through it, or walking through the US Capitol. In the same way, but greater, it is important to have access to the physical historical sights spoken of in the bible. I also believe that as a nation whose borders have international recognition, Israel has a right to defend itself from foreign aggression.
Palestinian terrorists are firing rockets from Gaza into sovereign Israeli land. Israel doesn't have very much land to spare and every time that there is a flare-up between Israel and terrorists, the terrorists, be it Hamas or Hezbollah seem to be able to carry out more destruction than the last time. Their weapons systems become more and more advanced. If Israel does not defend itself, it will very soon cease to exist. Theodore Roosevelt said: "Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft." Israel may be the best in the world at doing this. They negotiate and negotiate, they give land back to their enemies and are thanked with rockets. The Israeli responses to their enemies would probably make TR proud. Israel annihilates the infrastructure of their enemies, and the capability of their enemies to strike Israel (at least for a few years) and they do so with surprisingly few civilian casualties. In any war, civilians will be hurt, but Israel is very good at keeping collateral damage to a minimum, especially considering that the terrorists hide among civilians.
I am torn in this conflict. As you see the devastation in Gaza, it is impossible to not feel sorry for those in harm's way; the innocent people who were unfortunate enough to be born on the wrong side of a border. But if Israel relents, if Israel doesn't defend itself, there will be no Israel left. They will be wiped out forever. I think there needs to be peace, but there needs to be international pressure put on Syria and Iran who are likely supplying Hamas with weapons to stop supporting them or it will be considered an act of war. But the United States seems to be the only nation defending Israel internationally, and I fear that on January 20th they will have no allies left. If Israel loses it's last ally, I suspect they will begin launching pre-emptive nuclear strikes. I hope I'm wrong. I hope this conflict can come to a peaceful resolution, and I pray for peace in the middle east. But somehow, I don't think it will happen.
39 comments:
You're nuts if you think our Israeli policy will change much, if at all after Jan. 20.
Besides that, one thing you need to learn, dude. This is the USA and not Israel. We certainly shouldn't dictate our foreign policy to another country.
Stan,
Where did I say we should dictate another country's foreign policy? I think the US needs to support Israel. Obama has told Israeli groups he will support them. He has told Palestinian groups he will stand up for them. So which is it? I have a feeling he will push for Israel to bring down its defensive walls and for the creation of a Palestinian state on Israeli lands. I hope I'm wrong, but that's just what I think Obama will do.
But back to dictating foreign policy, every other nation tells us what we should do, and if we don't do it then we are a nation run by a 'Reckless Cowboy'. Or we're using, "Cowboy Diplomacy". But if the US tries to push negotiations in a manner that benefit the US, we are "dictating foreign policy to another country."
No, I said it backwards (my bad). I meant that we shouldn't let any other country dictate our foreign policies.
The Scripture from Amos is intriguing.
I totally disagree w/ your assessment of the Israeli response (or their most recent responses for that matter w/ Hezbollah, etc).
To explain this I'll have to explain my take on "responses to aggression" in whole.
It's one thing to attempt targeted responses against a terrorist organization w/in a country or region. it's another thing to respond to a state that uses terrorism as a tactic.
The Gazans (sp?) elected Hamas as their leaders. Hamas continually calls for the destruction of Israel (firing rockets, etc) into Israel. The proper response should not be targeted strikes and at the same time sending "aid" to Gaza. The proper response should be total victory over Gaza. This goal of two states is madness.
Invade, drive the Palestinians out of the region and secure the land for Israel. THAT is the response the would make TR proud, imo.
Imagine if, during WW2, we would have used the "targeted response" against Hitler's Germany. We'd still be fightin the b*st*rds. Are Muslim's lives more valuable than that of the Germans? Or the French? The Italians?
We leveled whole cities in that war to get to the bad guys.
The problem isn't war itself (because sometimes war is inevitable). The problem is that we (the Israelis, Europeans, the West in general) have forgotten how to fight a war.
Reck, I believe that at times Israel is too soft, but not always. I think in the Hezbollah beef, they were probably too soft. But that was a tricky situation because they were fighting a terrorist group in a country (Lebanon) that is very mixed between Muslims and Christians, and those who were pro-Hezbollah and those who were anti-Hezbollah.
I think this case is similar, not the same, but similar. The Palestinian people did elect Hamas leadership, but Hamas isn't exactly carrying out the will of the people who elected them. It would be like Obama dissolving the congress and nationalizing the country and then saying; "I told the people I was a radical son of a gun and they elected me, so that must mean I can do whatever I want."
I don't think Hamas is really speaking for all of the people who elected them. With that said, I do think Israel needs to wipe out all resistance in Gaza. They need to do in Gaza what we should have done in the Sunni Triangle, annhilate every terrorist and destroy every weapon. If you can do that without inflicting massive civilian casualties, that is even better.
I understand about wiping out entire cities in WWII. The city I lived in in Germany was 95% destroyed and it only had a few minor intelligence posts. The difference between then and now is technology. We can very accurately destroy only the building that we want to destroy.
I do believe though in overwhelming force. What I think we should have done in Iraq is this: Anytime a sniper takes a shot at a US soldier, artillery drops a 155mm round on that building. After the third or fourth building comes down, the regular civilians that live next to terrorists will be turning them in. Maybe Israel needs to do this. I do think though that they are being far more aggressive than the US would be given the same circumstances.
> I do think Israel needs to wipe out all resistance ... . If you can do that without inflicting massive civilian casualties, that is even better.
But that's the problem, dudes. Israel can't wipe out all resistance without inflicting massive civilian casualties. And when they do that, they only create new "terrorists" (as we like to call them.)
I understand both your point Nest. No one wants to hurt innocent people. Did Germany not understand what they were gettin w/ Hitler? There were concentration camps near or in most German towns. Germany had to be TOTALLY defeated for it to come back to it's senses. Your point about levelin biuldings w/ snipers is a great point. Israel should invade and defeat the Palestinians/Hamas. Same thing in my book.
And Stan, you've got it exactly backwards. By doin targeted strikes and not achievin victory you create more terrorists. Islam sees our (the West's) weakness; we won't do what's necessary to achieve total victory. We once did.
Reck -
> There were concentration camps near or in most German towns.
Enlighten me, Reck. I'm under the understanding that there were only like 5 major camps, and there were certainly more than 5 German towns back then. Were there minor camps that I'm not aware of?
And no dud, I don't have it backwards. You murder civilians, and it creates what we like to call "terrorists".
I think Jack Clark (if I'm remembering his name correctly) said it best: There are only 2 things Republican'ts do. 1: shift the money from the poor to the rich, and 2: cover-up the fact that they're doing # 1:. I don't think he said it exactly like that, but that's what he means.
Well the Pro-Palestine rallies reached Austin. About 10 people form South Austin crossed the river to hang out in front of Waterloo on 6th and Lamar. We grabbed lunch at Whole Foods before I went to work, but I didn't have time to enlighten the idiots that Israel didn't start the conflict, but they plan on finishing it.
Then again, they might have been the UT philosophy professors.
I doubt seriously that they're "pro-Palistine" protesters that you're talking about, Nestor.
I'll bet that they're actually "anti-war" protesters.
Seriously, Nestor.
If they were actually pro Palistine protesters, they'd be calling for Jordon to rename itself back to being called Palistine like it used to be.
Nestor -
> Well the Pro-Palestine rallies reached Austin. About 10 people form South Austin crossed the river to hang out in front of Waterloo on 6th and Lamar. We grabbed lunch at Whole Foods before I went to work, but I didn't have time to enlighten the idiots that Israel didn't start the conflict, but they plan on finishing it.
Billy Joel: We Didn't Start The Fire -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKu2QaytmrM
Stan,
They were waving a Palestinian flag, and had signs saying: "Honk if you support Palestine". Needless to say, (though I'll say it anyway) we didn't honk.
Stan,
I'm not surprised that you think there only 5. A simple point and click on google will bring up list after list of the hundreds in Germany and many more in German occupied territories durin the 1940's. The German people were well aware of the "Final Solution" and either through fear, agreement or apathy did nothing. Tho there were a few that fought back.
If you want the truth (I have to warn you tho that this is probably one of the hardest films to watch that you, or anyone, will ever see) watch "Memory Of The Camps".
Watch it and then smugly ask, "Were there minor camps that I'm not aware of?"
Or keep yourself in the dark, your choice.
LMAO!
S> I doubt seriously that they're "pro-Palistine" protesters that you're talking about, Nestor.
N> They were waving a Palestinian flag, and had signs saying: "Honk if you support Palestine".
This cracked me up!! I laugh harder every time I read it. It's probably just me...carry on w/ your serious discussion.
Let me know if (or when) you've seen the UT OSU gm. Not sure if you're workin 2nite, so I won't play spoiler.
I wasn't working, but I didn't see the game. I saw the highlights, and it seems like it was a game with drama similar to the '05 Rose Bowl. I think I missed one heckuva game.
You did. And this begs the question: since you guys don't do the tv thing, how do you watch gms?
I don't watch games very often. I either watch TV during lunch at work, or before work if I get there early, or at a friends house. I watched a couple of games on NBC.com. Other than that, I don't see them. I usually either try to listen on the radio, or just follow along on the ESPN game tracker, but listening doesn't happen that much either.
You should try catchin em at Hooters ;)
Eh, not so much.
> Stan, They were waving a Palestinian flag, and had signs saying: "Honk if you support Palestine". Needless to say, (though I'll say it anyway) we didn't honk.
I have no problem with pro-Palestinians. I mean, everybody knows that the solution is a two state solution.
Peace can only include both parties.
Reck -
> ... A simple point and click on google ...
Now you're sounding like former President George Bush.
And you *KNOW* how bad he is at raising children.
Stan,
Did you ever look into the concentration camp info I provided for you?
Also, try to convince the Palestinians of your 2 State goal; I think you might be surprised by *THEIR* solution.
Reck, provide (a) link(s) and maybe I'll check 'em out.
Some say that the Gaza Strip *IS* a concentration camp. I can't say that I disagree with those "some".
Stan,
I think after you watch this you'll change your mind. I hafta say to you or whomever watches this that it's extremely graphic and hard to watch. But, if you want to know the truth about the number of camps and capitulation by the German people this lays it out.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/camp/view/
Stan,
As I recall, about 3 years ago, Israel gave the Gaza strip to the Palestinian people, to govern as their own land. They violently forced Jews from their homes, and forcibly gave the land that had been cultivated by the Jews there to the Palestinians. Very shortly thereafter, (within days I believe) the Palestinians who were given Gaza to govern as they wished, decided to begin firing rockets into Israel. Israel would usually send a *PROPORTIONATE* response to which the Palestinians in Gaza, supported by Hamas, and most likely Syria and Iran, might or might not stop briefly. Then, Israel had to deal with the incident against Hezbollah in Lebanon in which the media and the sissies in the international community forced Israel to stop defending itself, and now there is this situation in Gaza. Israel has a right and a DUTY to defend it's people from the Hamas rockets. If Israel did not respond to the attacks with overwhelming force, it would be DERELICT in that DUTY. But things like DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY, INTEGRITY, COURAGE, LOYALTY, BORDERS are foreign to the liberals in the international community. It is unfortunate that we will probably need another holocaust to get the international community to wake back up. Radical Islam is the next great enemy that the western world is facing. It has no borders. It has no limits to how far it will go to acheive its objectives and it has no fears. It does not respect negotiation. It respects only power and brute strength. If Israel cowers, the United States will be next. I think Europe has already lost, but until Israel is defeated, the radical Islamists are going to wait to make their move in Europe. But now they are just fighting the legal battles, slowly getting Sharia Law passed in the UK, France and all the other nations of appeasers. Don't be an appeaser Stan.
"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." Sir Winston Churchill
Since the subject came up...if anyone's interested in reading an account from a concentration camp survivor, check out Night by Elie Wiesel. It was written in 1960,I read it about 10 years ago.
Nestor -
> As I recall, about 3 years ago, Israel gave the Gaza strip to the Palestinian people, ...
Actually, Egypt gave the Gaza Strip to the Palestinian people.
Reck -
> Stan, I think after you watch this ...
Dud, the challenge is to post it on *YOUR* blog, and then maybe I'll also post it on my blog. Leave Nestor out of this challenge you've made (and double dared me on.)
I think that Egypt was *SUPPOSED* to give Gaza to the Palestinians after the Yom Kippur War, except they lost the war. If you mean that Egypt gave Gaza to the Palestinians because of their peace deal, well, how's that peace working out? I forgot who was saying this, but I heard someone say that Jimmy Carter should give back his Nobel Peace Prize, since there isn't peace anymore, and it didn't really last all that long. I agree with that sentiment.
Stan,
You're in *DE NILE*.
Nestor -
> ... Egypt was *SUPPOSED* to give Gaza to the Palestinians after the Yom Kippur War, except they lost the war ...
So why did they give the Palestinians the Gaza Strip after they lost the Yom Kippur War????
Dude, Egypt's a small player in this. If we want to go back in history (look at the historic maps), then the Palestinians would be rightfully demanding that Jordon give back their land to Palestinians.
Stan,
Jordan also promised land to the Palestinians, but since they lost the Yom Kippur war, they reneged. If you want to go back in history and look at the maps, why don't we give Israel all of the land that Solomon controlled, from the Sinai, to southern Lebanon, to the land east of the Jordan?
I'd love to see those maps, Nestor. Post a link? Please????
The "map" I saw showed like the entirety of like Lebanon, Jordon, Israel etc. to be titled as one country, "Palestine". But I saw it in a bible so I can't verify the validity of the map, of course. :-)
Stan, here's the map as per your request: http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/solkingd.htm
Nestor, the map I saw showed Palistine as encompasing a much greater portion of the middle east. Of course (as I said) I saw it in a bible, so of course it wasn't any more accurate than a map found on the "internets". ;-)
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