I don't know, I'm still not sold on Sarah Palin. I think conservatives are treating her almost like liberals are treating Obama. She is not being scrutinized enough. It's not enough to feel good about a candidate, we have to also make sure that what we are being fed by the media is accurate.
There's no question that the left is on a mission to destroy her, but conservatives are on a mission to paint her as Reagan Redivivus. I really don't know about her. She's not terribly experienced. I admit that she has more executive experience, which is what counts at this point, than Obama, McCain and Biden combined. I don't know that that's saying much though.
Now getting to the issue of family. I know that every Republican is staying away from this subject but I can not, because it does give a glimpse into her character, if even a small one. I believe that the most important relationship outside of the relationship with God is with your spouse, and then with your children. I also know that kids will be kids, and kids will be rebellious, but I'm not sure about this situation. In talking about Jamie Lynn Spears, the tool Bill O'Reilly classically said it's the parents fault. (hattip to lafin gas over at TBSN) Now certainly there is a much different dynamic in the Spears family than the Palin's. But shouldn't we even question it? Why is this getting a pass? Imagine if Chelsea Clinton turned up pregnant during Bill Clinton's time in office. There would have been a media firestorm.
I'm not saying that she's necessarily a bad choice, she could turn out to be a great choice. But I'm not sold yet. I don't get how people like James Dobson are not even questioning her on this. Now, because we're talking about a conservative candidate, teenage pregnancy is a 'family' issue. If it was a liberal though, the same people would be questioning the parenting and family values in that home, and say how it's a reflection of society in general. Family values in America have been thrown out the window and have been trampled and stomped on. The Spears' family is probably part of the problem, and certainly a reflection of the problem. But, the overall lack of parenting in America is primarily to blame.
We let daycare, schools and TV raise our kids nowadays. What they see as normal is the rot that comes in through the TV. Even if you raise your kids properly, if they go to school, they are still subjected to that filth by the kids whose parents don't care. The vast majority of schools are not helping. They either are contributing to the problem by not teaching kids critical thinking skills or they are indoctrinating kids into liberalism outright.
Back to Sarah Palin. I believe that she is a mother who truly cares about her kids and wants the best for her kids. But I do wonder if her parental choices would be getting a pass from conservatives if she was a Democrat. Are 'values voters' really convinced that her parenting is what it should be, or has the full-frontal assault by conservative pundits and commentators guilting conservatives into believing that she's the real deal? I don't mean to bash her, but there are serious problems that are visible. Our culture has devolved to the point that you are a hate-monger for asking serious questions. I know that there is no perfect candidate, and in this election cycle there were certainly fewer decent ones than usual, but my question is this: Should we be looking into her personal life for insight into what kind of Vice President she will be? I say yes. Rudy Giuliani's failed marriages have been brought into question and no one complained about that. As have Fred Thompson's and John McCain's. While I don't think her family situation should disqualify her, I think it should be debated. Debate is not bad. Questioning is not bad. It should either refine the candidate and make them better or show them to be unqualified. Either way, it is better for America.
58 comments:
Wow, there's there's good stuff here! I love it! But where to start?...
I agree with you about the right giving her a pass on the pregnancy thing. But they HAVE to. You betcha if it woulda been Chelsea it would have been a totally different story. That's why politics is stupid. Everything gets spun to suit either side. Ridiculous. ie. "Oh well, her daughter's preggers, but look! She's keeping it! That Palin is some great conservative!" Please. The right woulda eaten the Clintons for lunch if this happened to their kid on their watch.
I just can't buy blaming the parents, tho. I know we have a lot to do with how our kids turn out, but we can't CONTROL them. If my boy knocks up a gal in his teen years, you can turn to me and say I let him watch garbage on t.v., sent him to public school, and didn't take him to church. But those things don't guarantee your kid not havin sex. I just think that if it happens, it's gonna be because HE didn't keep it in his pants when I wasn't looking. Doesn't make him a bad kid, or us bad parents. But I do understand your point on this.
Of course this all has to do with the idea of neglect and how one defines it. N might think I'm guilty of it w/ my kids, due to the 3 things I listed in my previous comment. My definition of it is different. Mrs. Spears took her kids into the fast lane of Hollywood and didn't yank them back to Louisiana when there were signs of trouble. That's neglectful.
Some think Mrs. Palin is because of wanting to take on this VP job when she has little ones at home. Or think she must have been somehow, because her teen is pregnant. Blaming parents is a tricky thing, cuz it depends on so many variables and opinions on what a "good parent" is.
I agree with you Linda, and I don't mean to totally blame the Palin's. I think you can't effectively compare the Palin's and Spears' either. I would have to say the Palin's, at least on the outside, are far better parents. I don't know that there is anything that the Palin's could have done differently to prevent their daughter getting pregnant. But, if you even try to discuss it, you are attacked by the Sean Hannity's and Bill O'Reilly's of the world as a hate-monger. I think it should be delved into and if she is as good as everyone is saying, she'll be better for it. I'm not saying go after her the way the left has, which is WAY out of line, but bring the questions up. Let her explain. I think if she does that, and she is the real deal, we'll like her even more.
Linda,
Don't feel bad about putting your kids in public school. Homeschooling and private school is not for everyone. The difference is, some people don't talk to their kids, at all. I know this is not your situation. I know that your family dynamic is a good one. You can talk to your kids and say; 'Is this right or wrong?' There are a majority of American families that don't have that dynamic. If you don't have communication between parents and children in this society, it will take a miracle for them to not come out with massive scars from their experiences.
The problem is how do you "delve into" it? I don't disagree necessarily, I just don't know how you do it. Or what answer there is to look for. What could she say so that she'd be better for it? I guess I'm sayin', what answers are you looking for?
Uh...ya musta not been watchin or readin the MSM lately. For several days that's ALL that was covered. I believe that a candidate's kids should be off limits. I also think a politicians personal life should be as well (unless it effects their ability to do their job).
The appeal of Palin (for me atleast) is that she comes from outside the Beltway. Reagan, from what I understand, wasn't an exemplary parent, should his politics be judged by that?
Bill Clinton led a..um.. less than perfect personal life, does that define his politics. Not for me.
From what I know so far, the Palin's are Believers, have regularly attended church and profess themselves as Christians (atleast the parents do).
Her political record is open for all to see. She began in grassroots politics (PTA) and has stayed grounded (in appearance atleast) in the same small town values of her roots.
Is there hypocracy comin from the right regardin not goin after her on the grandkid thing. Sure there is, if you believe that it's the job of the right to be the moral judge and jury of others. I don't.
My comments were geared toward the right, not toward any one commentin here btw.
Well I agree w/ Havic on this, but it doesn't seem like most (in the media anyway) do. A lot of people feel that if they're makin bad desicions in their personal lives, it reflects on their character, which translates onto their desicion making politically. So you're always gonna get digging into personal lives, on either side.
True. But the "bad" decision in this instant was made by the daughter; which I'm sure you agree.
There is, however, dbl standard here on both sides. The right would be critical if it were a dim candidate and the left (aka) the press would simply ignore and/or defend a left candidate.
Unfortunately, it also depends on what subject your talkin about. If Palin's child went out and beat up an African American to w/in inches of his life, would the kid be off limits? Or are you gonna cast some judgement onto the parents?
No, I know. I was thinking more along the lines of your B. Clinton example and "politician's personal lives" from paragraph 1.
I'll say this, this whole Palin pick has certainly opened up some subjects for debate that ate long over due.
Gotta skee-dadele to do some trabajo; I'll be back.
K, I'm just talkin out loud here...but if we're gonna agree that kids should be off limits, then why should candidate's kids GOOD decisions be profiled?
Using Palin as an example, we can hear how great her son is for making the admiral decision to join the armed forces, but then we can't talk about her other child who's being punished with a baby. lol...sorry just had to throw that in. But do you see where I'm going? Or am I totally off base here?
Great point. Tho, I don't see the press or anyone delvin into his decision to serve. She spoke to both subjects in her speech.
Just saw a cartoon vid on RoadRunner front page totally makin fun of Palin and the GOP. Oh, that fair and balanced MSM.
Ok, really got a split.
Maybe they're not fair and balanced, but by the time she got to "mashed potatoes" (yea!), I started laughin.
Wow, I didn't know this would take off like this. But here's the thing. Parents are primarily responsible for raising their kids. If the kids make good decisions, the parents probably had something to do with that, not always, but there is the influence. If kids make bad decisions, the parents probably had something to do with that too, not always, but the parents influence (or lack of it) usually has an effect on how kids turn out. Now I know that with some kids, they just have to learn the hard way. No matter how good a parent they have, they have to do things the hard way.
I don't know where Palin falls in this is all. We don't know a whole lot about her, and the conservative talking heads don't want us to. I do think that our leaders' personal lives should be looked at with HEAVY restraint, but I do think they should be looked at. "If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?" (1 Timothy 3:5)
I know this scripture is speaking specifically to the qualifications of church leaders, but shouldn't this also apply to other leaders as well? If a politician can't even manage their own family, how can they manage a district, state or nation? I don't want to disqualify her, I just want to know more.
One thing about Sarah Palin, she talks the way I would imagine Linda talking. So there's that.
Ha! A bit.
If she were applin for a deaconship (tho women don't, atleast in Bap church), then I'd agree.
Now, if their actual lives (on a whole) don't match what they say(ie Larry Craig, John Edwars, etc) then I can see how I wouldn't support them. What I'm sayn is that Palin's record is fair gm, her personal life, for the most part, especially her kids lives, are off limits.
Question:
Should Winston Churchill's alcoholism disqualified him as Prime Minister?
Or Nancy Reagan consultin star charts?
JFK was probably an addict, MLK/Bill Clinton womenizers..
I don't necessarily have an answer for this, curious if yall do?
I draw the line at star charts. Alchohol and women I get.
Don't listen to him Nestor, my voice is far more pleasant. ;) Tho it's funny you should say that, cuz I was doin a pretty good impression of her this morning.
Trabajo..not in the dictionary. Googled it...everything that came up was in Spanish. wth?
Trabajo (if I'm spellin in right) is work. Ok, just what the heck is redivivus anyway. I mean, I guess I could google ie as well; but that kinda feels like cheatin.
Hey, maybe we could get an act goin. Bush and Palin in Vegas.
This is what I think about the personal lives thing. It offers a glimpse into their character. If she talks about her family life, lets us see a little bit of it, I'd probably be satisfied. I'm not talking intrusive, just let us take a tiny peek. I think if she did this voluntarily, I'd be convinced because she would be saying; 'Look I have nothing to hide.' Obviously, she's not perfect and neither is her husband. That's not what I'm looking for. I'd just like to make sure that this is one of those things where they're truly doing the best they know how to do and they truly love their kids. That'd be enough for me. I think I'm kind of killing this, which was not my intention so I may leave it here. I just felt like the media coverage from both sides has been weak and hypocritical.
The side who claims to be about empowering women is trying to destroy this woman and the side that is supposed to support family values is saying that it's a personal matter and we can't question her family values.
Redivivus. There was a belief in the 1st century of Nero Redivivus. The Christians thought that Nero was so evil that he couldn't die and would come back. Many people believed he was in Persia gathering an Army, waiting to return. In Revelation, John plays on this a little.
"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction." (Revelation 17:9-11)
Nero was the 5th emperor. Vespasian the 6th and Titus (who destroyed Jerusalem before becoming emperor) was 7th. Titus and Domitian were the sons of Vespasian. After Titus there was Galba, Otho, and Vitellus, but none of them ever really controlled power in Rome. When Domitian came to power, he was vicious and launched the worst Christian persecution in history. He 'changed the set times and laws' and proclaimed himself lord and god. Anyone who refused to offer insense in his name was barred from trade, but those who did were given a seal showing their loyalty toward Rome and the emperor, 'the mark of the beast'
Domitian was 'Nero Redivivus'. He was probably even worse than Nero. Nero was brutal but he was insane. Domitian was brutal, but he was sane. Everything he was doing was intentional. But if you look up Nero Redivivus you'll probably find a lot of info on it.
The Reagan Redivivus thing is that many conservatives talk about Reagan like he was the greatest thing ever, and they've been looking for the 'Next Reagan' for a while. I don't really want the 'Next Reagan' as much as I want the next conservative. If that's Palin, great. But I'm thinking it's Bobby Jindal.
Agreed, we can question her family values. But, it would be a mistake (and I hear ya, I realize you're not doin this) to judge her based soley on this.
Ok, alittle bout Gov Palin from the NYT Oct '06..
"Ms. Palin, the former mayor of Wasilla, stands out in a state that has seen few fresh faces in politics."
"More specifically, Mr. Knowles (her opponent then) has suggested that Ms. Palin lacks the backbone and skills to negotiate with oil companies to build a new natural gas pipeline"
They're buildin it under her leadership.
"Ms. Palin is portraying herself as a needed outside agent of change"
"She is a conservative Christian who opposes abortion. She runs marathons. She fishes. She hunts."
"But Ms. Palin also recalled that the pipeline was a topic of discussion when she was a child"
Again, she got it done, to the benefit of Alaska and the US.
Ohhh...
Reck loves Sarah. ;)
Watchin Flight 93 on A&E.
McCain needs to win.
More of a crush actually :)
Get your kleenex ready. For the movie.
What did you think of the movie? Originally I swore I wouldn't watch a 9/11 movie, then I'm pretty sure it was Flight 93 that sucked me in on cable and it was just a cry fest. ugh.
Hey I thought you said it wouldn't be such a bad thing if Obama won?
And regarding your question reg. Churchill, et al...I dunno. I'm thinkin that's up to the individual..what they're willin to tolerate as far as personal issues go.
Meet you in Vegas. I hope they have penny slots there. :)
Vee-Vaaah Las Vegas!
Movie left me w/ a mixed feelin of anger and sadness. Thought it was well done.
Yes, the Obama victory thing. Have an draft post at TH about it and about the press and about Ester (from the Book). Maybe I caught GB's ADD.
Ever been to Vegas? I went when I was a kid...best part was pulling the door open to Circus Circus and thinking, 'Starsky and Hutch grabbed this same door handle!' 1976.
Currently watching "Waitress". Some movies just make you so thankful for what you have, ya know?
Had some neighbors over for a fire out back tnite. A helicopter flew overhead and when I looked up to see it, I think a hot from the fire landed in my eye. It's still hurtin...
Too bad about the burnt eye. Hope it gets better, hopefully you won't walk around like this ;( .
We watched Waitress a few weeks ago. It was pretty good, but I had a hard time rooting for the girl that you're supposed to root for. I felt bad for her, but I also thought she was pretty messed up too.
Circus Circus brings back memories. When I was 5 we lived in Vegas for a while and sometimes my parents would take me to the games area (the kids games) and one of them would stay with me while the other hit the slots, then they'd switch...good times.
Never seen it and never had a "hot" in my eye. Hope it's not serious.
I'm rootin for her.
Ha Nestor..that's pretty much how I looked for the first few hours, but I think it's gettin better.
Wait a minute, it's cold enough for a fire?
Yall suck.
I think ya'll are missing the left's gripes about Palin and her unwed underage teenager's pregnancy.
It's that her kid was given the *CHOICE* to have the child or not (she chose to have it, BTW.)
The real issue we have with it is that apparently Governor Palin likes having the choice for her daughter, but has no problem with taking that same choice away from every other American woman.
:)...yes, Reck. Definitely cold enough for a fire. We were all in jeans and sweatshirts. Get your butt up here this winter.
Actually Stan, I don't remember "choice" ever coming into the equation, so that's not the left's problem with it. The gripe is that she's a pro-life conservative who (allegedly) believes in abstinence only teaching and her daughter's pregnant. Only going on what I've heard the left say on this, don't know if that's true, but that's their gripe. I don't recall Palin ever sayin she likes "choice" for her daughter.
SWEATSHIRTS! That's crazy.
Oh, we'll be there.
Maybe.
You don't have to patronize me..I know you have no intention on coming to the great white north. But you should. Do it for little S. Oh, I'll keep it comin...
Really liked the movie. I'm feelin a little meloncholy tnite, so I cried more than it deemed necessary. But I musta needed it, cuz it came easy.
Linda -
> Actually Stan, I don't remember "choice" ever coming into the equation ...
I suggest you start paying attention, then. And if you were, "You have a very bad, Attention span, It's a mess" (Schwantz Lefantz).
When the Republican't party released the news that Palin has an underaged/unwed pregnant daughter, they bragged that her daughter *CHOSE* to have the (hopefully future) baby.
Stan,
You're right. The right bragged that she chose to have the baby. Because legally she has a choice. But I still don't recall Gov. Palin saying she wanted the choice for her daughter but for no other American. I think she'd be perfectly happy with her daughter, or any woman NOT having the choice. Something I think you know I don't agree with.
My understanding is that Palin is totally anti-choice, including in case of rape or incest.
See my latest post on my blog (not "related" to my above response), Linda.
As far as I can tell, she is 'anti-choice' (as the libs say), aka PRO-LIFE. Since Stan wants to say 'anti-choice', how about saying Obama is PRO-INFANTICIDE, which he is. He shot down legislation in Illinois that would have made it illegal to abandon babies born alive. He wants to leave babies unattended to die. So much for the party of compassion.
Nestor -
> As far as I can tell, she is ... PRO-LIFE. (StanNote: as for the rest of Nestor's lies, well, if you believe that Obama's for killing babies, you're brainwashed.)
Is she for the occupation of Iraq?
Stan,
Are you denying that Obama would not allow out of committee a bill that would ban in Illinois the abandonment of children born alive as the result of a failed abortion? It is what the Romans and Greeks would do to children they did not want, and Obama supported it as Illinois State Senator.
As far as her position on Iraq, I'm pretty sure she is for finishing the job, winning the war and bringing the troops home in victory.
Obama is for bringing the troops home win or lose. If we bring the troops home before we win, we will eventually have to send more troops back in at a much higher cost of life on both sides.
We will also be telling Al Qaeda that our tough talk is just that, talk. They will be emboldened and they will carry out more severe attacks.
She's pro Iraq war/occupation, she's pro-Death. Simple as that, dud!!!!
Palin loves to hunt (Moose?), doesn't she?
She's pro-Death. Of (supposed) God's created creatures. I do believe that she's said that Moose are evidence of creationism.
Are you certain you want to take the path of the 'red-herring' of Palin instead of talking about McCain't???? (LOL!!!! Of course you don't wan't to talk about McCain't. You'd be talking about Bush!!!!)
Would Palin be into killing cockroaches if she happened to be from Houston???? I guarantee you: "Yes she would." She's pro-Death, just like Tom DeLay is into killing (supposed) God's creations.
Stan,
Do you eat meat? Is the sky blue? Does a woodchuck actually chuck wood? You're really stretching in a vain attempt to make a point. Kind of like Obama ducking Stephanopolous' question on what is victory in Iraq. (Quack! Quack!)
When we say pro-life, it doesn't need to be said that we are speaking of human life. It is obvious to anyone with a 4th grade education. It is even obvious to you. But because the left doesn't want to destroy one of their sacred cows (abortion) you will do anything to avoid debate. The left doesn't want to debate abortion, because they know they will lose. When any liberal who is a good debater debates a conservative who is a good debater, the liberal loses, point blank. Liberal ideas suck, and a century of liberal movements throughout the world have proven that liberalism does not work. It is the true movement that makes the rich richer and the poor poorer, but it only makes a handful of liberal leaders richer.
Nestor whines (I guess he's trying to prove Phil correct) -
> Stan,
Do you eat meat? Is the sky blue? Does a woodchuck actually chuck wood? You're really stretching in a vain attempt to make a point. Kind of like Obama ducking Stephanopolous' question on what is victory in Iraq. (Quack! Quack!)
When we say pro-life, it doesn't need to be said that we are speaking of human life. It is obvious to anyone with a 4th grade education. It is even obvious to you. But because the left doesn't want to destroy one of their sacred cows (abortion) you will do anything to avoid debate. The left doesn't want to debate abortion, because they know they will lose. When any liberal who is a good debater debates a conservative who is a good debater, the liberal loses, point blank. Liberal ideas suck, and a century of liberal movements throughout the world have proven that liberalism does not work. It is the true movement that makes the rich richer and the poor poorer, but it only makes a handful of liberal leaders richer.
Stan,
YOU should have been Obama's running mate, since you don't answer questions you're asked or appropriately address points of debate either. Saying 'straw man', 'red herring', or saying person x 'whines' is not debate and it makes you look foolish.
Nestor continues to whine -
> Stan, YOU should have been Obama's running mate, since you don't answer questions you're asked or appropriately address points of debate either. Saying 'straw man', 'red herring', or saying person x 'whines' is not debate and it makes you look foolish.
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