This post is a response to Diana's question about the slavery portion of Exodus directly preceding the scripture I quoted in response to Reck's question on my Personhood Colorado post. The scipture she referred to was; Exodus 21:20-21. I will start by saying this: I don't believe it is God's desire for men to own slaves, however, it is not sinful. It is not God's desire for a man to have more than one wife, however that is not sinful either. Everyone in the bible I can think of who had more than one wife had issues because of it. Similarly, slavery was permitted, yet probably wasn't a good idea.
I would argue however, that Israel took far better care of their slaves than most other (if not all) ancient peoples because of scriptures like that one (Exodus 21:20-21) as well as:
"If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today." (Deuteronomy 15:12-15)
"If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master. Let him live among you wherever he likes and in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him." (Deuteronomy 23:16)
"Do not deprive the alien or the fatherless of justice, or take the cloak of the widow as a pledge. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you from there. That is why I command you to do this." (Deuteronomy 24:17-18)
Now there are many, many more scriptures which refer to how Israel was to treat slaves, foreigners, servants, etc. The heart of God was that all people should be treated well. Were slaves property? Yes. The Israelites were reminded MANY times that at one time, THEY were the property of the Egyptians, and that they needed to remember that when they dealt with their own slaves.
Where does this go to? A better question may be, what is the point of the Old Testament and its teachings? The purpose of the Old Testament was to proclaim the coming of Jesus, the Messiah. It is also the story of God's relationship with his Kingdom, primarily the physical kingdom of Israel. I would have to write many books to go into all of the intricacies of the Old Testament and how they play out into God's Spiritual Kingdom that began around 33 AD. (Indeed, many have been written)
Actual slavery is a metaphor for our slavery to sin. When we are not in a relationship with God, we are slaves to Satan and this world. When we ARE in a relationship with God, when we have been washed of our sins through the blood of Christ, then we are no longer in slavery. Just as Israel's captors were washed away and defeated in the waters of the Red Sea, so is Satan defeated and our sin washed away in the waters of baptism. When Israel crossed through the Red Sea they were freed from slavery, but had a new perspective on slavery that they needed to be reminded of. A Christian needs to be reminded of his/her former life of slavery to sin, and look compassionately on those still in sin. However, those in sin are not God's people, as their sins separate them from God. This doesn't mean that God doesn't love them. It does mean that they are lost in sin, and need salvation. They need to be set free.
Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy have the rules that God set out for His physical Kingdom on Earth; Israel. Because they were his chosen people, sin could not be among them, and the penalties for sin had to be swift and harsh. Sin not only separates the individual from God, but unchecked can destroy the entire Kingdom. Because the physical Kingdom of Israel no longer exists today, things have changed, slightly. We are not under law, but under grace. That does not mean, however that we can 'sin it up'. (Romans 6:1-2) We need to walk in the footsteps of Jesus. We need to rid our lives of all sin. To bring this to a close, as this has gotten longer than I intended (it was intended to be a comment) those in slavery to sin are separated from God, and will not see heaven. Those who have been freed from slavery WILL see heaven. If God chooses to reward and treat as better those who are not slaves in this more perfect Spiritual Kingdom, then why would he have not treated his chosen people Israel, better than those who were their slaves?
110 comments:
Kinda nice bein a slave to Christ.
Well, there's freedom in bein a slave to Christ, so we've got that goin for us.
Ya know, I can see how non-Believers would have some trouble understandin this particular Scripture.
But the Master/slave analogy is pretty dead on. I think that those who aren't saved just have a hard time understandin that they are enslaved to different masters (or have a hard time admittin it). I certainly did.
I think there are cetain things that don't make sense using worldly logic. This is probably one of them. They say; "I'm not a slave to money, or to my things." But I think most non-Christians have elevated something, or many things above God. I think even a Christian has to be very careful that their trust and hope is in God, and not things, people or their own skill.
Nestor -
> ... there's freedom in bein a slave ...
"And he runs by screaming: "Everything you know is wrong, *BLACK IS WHITE UP IS DOWN and SHORT IS LONG*" - "Genius Al" Yankovic
Nestor> But I think most non-Christians have elevated something, or many things above God.
I'm willing to bet most people non, or not, would fit this bill in the way you see it. I'd also be curious to know when you know you've elevated something above God.
If you're not a slave to God, than maybe you're just a slave to nothing. It's all in the perspective, isn't it? And I'm still thinkin no one knows for certain if God exists, so there's that.
Ah contraire mon ami. I'm 100% certain that HE does exist.
When God is first and foremost in my life I feel a fellowship w/ Him. This isn't imaginary, it's real. There's really no way for me to explain it. Now, when I choose to let the world (flesh) dominate, that fellowship ebbs, or even breaks.
And yes, Christians battle w/ elevating things above God. I certainly do.
Ah, well unfortunatly YOU being certain doesn't/can't project itself onto me. And I could argue (?) that when the 'idea' of God is first and foremost in yourlife...
I'm still stuck in the thought that it's the IDEA of God, and not necessarily God that works it's magic.
And I've never claimed it's imaginary. I understand your real feelings, I just thing the brain is an amazing thing.
Gosh I hate when I don't hear a response after I say things like that. gn
The power of positive thinkin? I guess the diff is you give credit to the power of the person while I give that same credit to God. Now, I understand why, you doubt He exists.
There's this "leap of faith" thing that I admit is hard to do until you do it.
"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for Me will find it."
Matt 16:24-25
Well put.
I was really close to responding yesterday, but I wanted to give this the time it deserves.
As Reck said, I know that God exists. There's no doubt in my mind. I think most people do elevate things above God. Even Christians at times do. I think we put our kids, money, our jobs and many other things before God.
Most people I know who are doing well financially don't have that much trust in God. They trust the fact that they have a lot of money in the bank to bail them out when trouble comes. If you're broke, then you have no choice but to trust in God because there's no money to bail you out.
What about putting your kids events or your job before God? I won't work during church. That's my conviction. I've been asked to work overtime during church at times when we've really needed the money, but I'd be trusting in my job or myself to bail us out, not trusting in God. How about people whose kids play on travel teams or any sport team that interferes with church. They say; "Well we'll just miss a few services so that we can take care of this. God understands right?" I think God understands that He's not first in the lives of someone who's doing this. I think it also teaches kids that THEY are more important than God. Maybe not now, but in the long run. Now of course there are exceptions. But what does the heart say? If there is an emergency at work, I believe God understands, but he also knows whether your heart is with Him or with your job.
Following in the footsteps of Jesus is to live a life of sacrifice. We may not sacrifice our animals anymore. But our lives are meant to be living sacrifices. It's supposed to hurt. That might not sound like a whole lot of fun, but when has doing something that didn't hurt even a little ever been TRULY worth while?
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship." (Romans 12:1)
Good points Nest.
However, I have to disagree w/ some a what you said.
We are no longer under the Law. The Law speaks of Jesus, that's why He said He came to fulfill the Law. In fact, Jesus reaffirmed all of the 10 commandments save one, the Sabbath. Now don't get me wrong, attendin church is very important, it's part of the armor we wear. But there are times when other things take precedent (not frivolous things tho). Work would be one of those things. I struggled w/ this early on (in fact once Lin said, when I was feelin guilty about missin a Bible study) to give myself a break; she was right. I'm saved by grace, not acts.
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat and drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath Day." Col 2:16
"For the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath." Matt 12:8
"Then He said to them,'The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath'." Mark 2:27
When legitimate reasons crop up for missin church there are other times we can worship. Sundays are not a requirement. In fact, in Jesus' time the Sabbath was on saturday; as it still is for Jews.
But, if you feel convicted to attend w/out exception church on sundays, then that's the right thing to do.
Lin,
For an interestin debate on the validity of the Bible and the existence of God see this TH column...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/AmandaCarpenter/2008/06/23/americans_believe_in_god,_heaven,_hell
I jumped in pretty far down the thread.
Well, it didn't post entire http.
Anyhow, if you search(at TH) under columnists for Amanda Carpenter it lists her columns. The one I'm talkin about is Americans Believe in God, Heaven and Hell.
Tho these beliefs that (as defined by the poll respondents) are pretty messed up imo.
I'm over there checking it out now.
Interesting, Nestor. The thing is everyone draws their own line here. Like think of the family that put God before even science and doctors when it came to their child's health. Clearly, that wasn't the right thing to do. They trusted in God to bail THEM out.
I dunno, I'm just saying I don't see how you can always put God before everything else. You draw your lines, too, just not where others may draw theirs.
Reck,
I noticed you didn't call Sophie "at best disagreeable and at worst obtuse." Save those special lines just for me? ;)
Remember that do ya?
Your example of the parents who sought no treatment for their child is not a true reflection of Christianity. If I remember correctly they were Christian Scientists.
And who's to say that God doesn't use the skill of doctors to help people. Goin to a dr isn't a sign of a lack of faith.
Putting God first becomes more natural as He sanctifies us. It becomes, in effect, second nature ;)
You don't think they considered themselves Christian? Regardless. Doesn't matter what religion they were, just taking the "putting all your faith in God" point to the extreme to make a point. I happen to agree (as do most, I'm sure) that goin to the doctor doesn't show a lack of faith. I was talking about putting God first in regards to drawing a line.
Not sure I follow you on the "drawing a line" thing. Could you elaborate.
Man, I love this spell ck thing. I CAN NOW SPELL!!
strata various
nonchalant
paleolithic (ha, actually got that one on my own)
gargantuan
physiology
angioplasty
obtuse
:)
Um, no. You can spell CHECK.
Ok. N was talking about the ways one puts God first. One example was not working during church time. Even tho money may be needed, he wasn't gonna put his trust in his job or people to bail him out, but have trust in God. (And pls forgive N, if I'm not understanding you right.)
I then used the extreme example of people who put their God first regarding health issues. Only to illustrate that a line has to be drawn somewhere in relation to this subject. Does that make better sense?
And I don't see the spellcheck when I right click.
You hafta actually misspell words to use it:) Maybe it's my comput tho, cause I"m able to do it on all blogs; so far.
Ok, I understand now.
But, God must come first. He won't lead you to a "bad" thing. So yes, puttin God first is the correct thing to do at all times. "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God".
I'm not tryin to beat a dead horse, but sayin "at all times" is illustrating my point. Those (and others, too) folks who put God before medicine, are doing a disservice. So it can't be "at all times", unless I'm misunderstanding you.
Reck,
I'm not sure if you totally understood my point. However first, I disagree that Jesus 'got rid of the Sabbath' though. Jesus did to the Sabbath what he did to all of the Oral Law, and he got to the heart of the Mosaic Law. As you put down, the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
The Pharisees saw work as anything to do with a person's profession, healing included, 'harvesting' grain was included as well. When Jesus healed people on the Sabbath, the Pharisees attacked him for doing 'work'. Is saving someone from their affliction truly 'work'? I think we'd both disagree. When Jesus' disciples picked some heads of grain and began to eat, the Pharisees again attacked Jesus. If they were out there doing full-blown harvest, they would have been in violation of the Sabbath, however they were picking a little grain, just enough to eat. Jesus uses this point to correct them:
"He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." (Matthew 12:11-12)
So Jesus is not against the Sabbath, but he is against the misinterpretation of the HEART of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is for man, not God. God knows our hearts and he knows that we would probably work 7 days a week if not for Him commanding us to take a day of rest. Does it matter what day your day of rest is? Not really. But He is saying that we need to rest from 'work'.
What my point was, is that we should not put ANYthing above God. It is my conviction to not make appointments during meetings of the Body, the Church becuase I feel that anytime of meeting in fellowship is time with God. That doesn't mean I don't need to have my own personal time with God, but I need to have time in fellowship with other disciples.
My job knows that I do not work during those times. I am grateful that I am not in a leadership position like I was when I was in the Army, because at times crises would come up that would mean I would miss some meetings of the Body, but it would have to be a TRUE crisis.
Or what about when kids get sick? If our kids are sick, either Carmen or I am going to stay home from church. It's not that we don't want to be at church, but we also don't want to get anyone else sick. There are reasons for not making it to a meeting of the Body, but where is your heart? (When I say 'your', I mean mine too, and anyone's for that matter.) There are times when I've been like; "Man I really just don't want to go today." But I go anyway, because of my conviction, and I also know that is the advice I'd give to someone else. I'm usually grateful I did.
Anyway, I just want to say that my point is to look at the heart of scripture and really try to see what it means (from the heart) beyond what it says. One of the scriptures that I really draw my convicion from (on going to church)is this one:
"Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25)
So to finish this LONG comment up, I think it is important to put God first. If there are emergencies, God understands, and He knows where your heart is.
And I'm not sure how you can explain "he will not lead you to a 'bad' thing". There have many bad things that have happened in the name of God. HE may not lead one there, but the belief in Him can.
You are misunderstanding me. Would a loving God WANT you to not take your kid to the doctor?
When I say put God first I mean to ask Jesus Christ to lead. When I wake up in the mornin, the first thing I do (usually) is ask Him to take the lead. I surrender to Him daily. I seek His advice. I ask for His guidance. That, mon ami, is putting God first.
Almost a jinx :)
Linda,
When talking about putting God before medicine, it comes to heart. If I think God wants me to take medicine, or give it to my kids as His way of healing, then that's what I'm going to do. But I know where the TRUE healing is coming from. He uses different ways, but all good things come from God.
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28)
Nest,
Actually, I think we agree here. My point was the particular day, sunday. I try to dedicate sundays for church (cause that's when we have services) and for family; cause sats are often work days.
What I'm not sayin is that the Sabbath isn't important. And yes, God did set it aside as a day of rest for us as well. He certainly didn't need to rest.
We agree here.
Ok, so when your kid stumbles up to your bed at 2 in the morning w/ an ear ache, you're not actually thinking what God would want, are you? I mean, don't you give the kid some ibuprofin and move on? I don't mean to sound like a prat, but it sounds so contrived.
Sorry, contrived isn't the word I meant. Um...(thinking)...too comtemplated? That's the best I can do at the moment. :)
Linda..Linda..Linda..
These bad things were the doin of man, not God.
There have been bad things that have happened in the name of freedom and fairness. Does this mean freedom and fairness are bad? Do they cause one to do bad things. More likely it was a wrong/bad decision on the part of the person who did it. They may have thought they were doin what was right.
This is the old argument...right and wrong never change, a persons view of it may..but good and bad are constants.
Yes, I ask God for permission for every word that comes outta my mouth.
Geez!
Spell CHECKED contemplated..you got it right :)
Ok, figured the Linda..Linda ..Linda.. thing would tick you off.
But, you "contrived: me, so we'll call it even.
R,
>There have been bad things that have happened in the name of freedom and fairness. Does this mean freedom and fairness are bad?
I never said that believing in God was bad. Crap, I'm sounding like Stan.
N:> If I think God wants me to take medicine, or give it to my kids as His way of healing, then that's what I'm going to do.
I think my question was a valid one.
It only made me flush...I'm getting better. And I caught my "contrived" before you could comment.
When I pray for God to lead me (in general) I think this covers ibuprofen type decisions pretty well.
On big decisions I ABSOLUTELY specifically ask for guidance. And I'll pray alot about em.
Is that a "valid" answer?
I'm enjoyin this.
Oh, and I did jinx you back at 27 past the hour :)
L, "I never said that believing in God was bad. Crap, I'm sounding like Stan."
No, you said that the belief in God causes people to do bad things. Yes?
You're belittling my questions, which is fine, even tho originally they weren't meant for you. I was addressing N's "if I think God wants me to take medicine" quote.
Yes, your answer is "valid".
Yes, I said that.
Actually, gonna have to take back my hyphenated valid shot.
In the context of Nest's comment it was. BUT, I doubt he was talkin about earaches.
Actually, I used the word "can", meaning 'can' cause bad things, not 'does'.
Yes, I'm doin alittle belittlen. Sorry.
L, "And I'm not sure how you can explain "he will not lead you to a 'bad' thing". There have many bad things that have happened in the name of God. HE may not lead one there, but the belief in Him can."
Again, God is completely holy. He won't lead you to do a bad thing. A person might reason out incorrectly and choose to do a bad thing. They might even say,"I do this thing in the name of God". Does this make it God's fault, that they made a wrong decision, one contrary to His will?
Ok, maybe I'm misunderstandin you alittle. If you're sayin that people who believe in God do bad things, then yes. I certainly do.
But when I do, it's contrary to what God wants. I don't see how this can be taken as "God 'can' cause people to do bad things".
Ok, I'm gettin sleepy here. But, since I was the snarky one tonite, I'll give you the last word...
Well then using that arguement, God can't lead you to do a good thing, either. Because a person may reason out and do a good thing, does that mean it's God's fault they did a good thing?
So why is it that every good thing we do is because of God, and every bad thing we do is because of man? As you like to say, you can't have it both ways. (ooooh, who's gettin snarky now so late in the night?)
Can someone who doesn't believe in God do something good? Absolutely.
Does this negate the fact that when I turn my life over to Christ that it's not Him who's compellin me to do the good thing? Absolutely not.
Gnite babe. I do like talkin to you.
Can't argue w/ either one of those comments, nor have I ever alluded to doing so.
Before I was saved I was (generally) a good person.
But consider the possibility that we are here are this earth for a reason other than simply existin. Could we not be here because God wants fellowship w/ us?
Ok, went back on the last word thing. But, that was totally me, not God's doin.
Curious if anonymous was you? Didn't sound like you.
gn
Yes it was me, I just forgot to type my name. Oh it's possible, but I seriously doubt it.
Wow, you guys were busy. I've been watching my autobiography tonight.
Linda,
About taking medicine, I think you know we swing to the tree-hugger side of the fence on that issue. We won't take medicine unless it's really necessary. High fevers, SEVERE pain, major infections etc. You won't see us taking high blood pressure meds though...unless we have tried everything else and it is still not coming down. We are not about putting chemicals in our bodies without a very good reason. (Yes it's strange that I'm in Pharmacy, but it is what it is) Anyway, God is the Great Physician. The cures come from God. God may use medicine, doctors etc as his instruments, but it is He who heals us.
Nest,
That is alittle ironic. Kinda like the baker who won't ate cake (because a the calories) or the car salesman who rides a bike (cause of co2 emissions).
Or the recovering alchohol bartender!
ic. I forgot ic.
N, this is from my place, but I wanted it here for continuity sake...
L> Actually, I thought my point there at the end of our convo was a decent one. If when people do bad things in the name of God, it's not God's fault, but man's...then why is it when people do GOOD things in the name of God it's because of God and not man. That doesn't add up.
June 26, 2008 10:22 AM
linda said...
I'm rescinding that last comment, it wasn't a decent point. It's because, God wants us to do good things but we have free will. So if we do bad things, it's our fault for not following God. When we do good things, we're following what he wants. Did I answer my own question fairly accurately?
The only place this can lead then, is the question of exactly how much control we have over our own fate. If there's a plan for each of us, then where's free will come in?
Linda,
I think you pretty much got it. When it comes to free will, we have complete free will. The thing is, God knows us so well, he already knows what we are going to do. He knows if you(or anyone) are going to decide to follow Him or not. He knows if I will stay true to Him for life or if I will be dragged back into the world. He knows our hearts. (better than we do) He knows what we will do. He makes sure we have enough opportunity to find Him, and lets us make up our own mind. I think many people think; "Well I don't really have much choice, God knows what I'm going to do." But just because He knows what you will do, doesn't mean you have to disobey, and it doesn't mean you have to obey.
It's like with kids, sometimes you know they are going to disobey you, but you can't really punish them until they do. I think we have to give kids the freedom to make their own choices (as hard as it can be...I'm not always very good at this) But God gives us the opportunity. He puts the truth in our hearts, he has given us his tool...the bible, but we have to choose to listen to Him. The fact that he already knows what we will do, does not mean that we don't have choice.
Personal, I think keepin whales in captivity is just wrong. I mean, they're meant to be free right?
Wait a minute, there's no "y" on the end of that. My bad.
I good question too would be how does God already know what we'll do.
You could say that He knows our nature and can predict what we'll do. Kinda like if I set a bowl of chocolate ice cream in front of my child and a bowl of grits (mmm..grits). Well, I know my kids, they'd pick the ice cream. Me, I'd pick both.
BUT, I don't think this is a valid (there's that word again) analogy.
God sits outside of time (He invented it for cryin out loud). God is not a linear entity, time is outside of His nature. God is not restricted to dwelling in the past, future OR present; He exists in all three, simultaneously. This simply means He already knows what were gonna do because He's already seen it. This takes nothin away from free choice.
Ok, but I think there's a difference between him knowing what we'll do, and him having a PLAN for us. Is there a plan?
Say for example I was "meant" to meet you guys so that I could learn more....but I don't ever become a Christian. Was that his plan? Why do some people believe and others don't? Does he want it that way?
I'll put it another way...we have free will, but are our decisions already pre-determined? And if they are, than the free will we think we have is pretty much a fallacy, isn't it? It feels like free will, but how can it be if there's a plan already set in place?
This is pretty deep stuff. Alotta it is hard for me to put my mind around.
This is gettin into subjects like the reformed view (Calvinism, predestination, election)or because of our sinful nature no one can choose God w/out Him selectin us vs, non- reformed views like Armenianism (anyone can freely choose God despite our sinful nature).
I believe that there is truth in both views. But, I know that I don't have the wisdom to understand it yet. One day I will, because He'll give me that knowledge. That I'm sure of.
I'm guessing these views are within the Christian community and there's differing opinions on it? Is it a bible interpretation issue then, or isn't it addressed there, therefore left to our own opinion?
And, too, you may not understand it, (I mean, who DOES), but what's your gut tell ya?
Usually that I'm hungry :)
No, there is Scripture that addresses it, it's the interpretation of it that's debatable. But, understandin this is not something that I (or any Christian) should get hung up on.
What is important, in fact, required for salvation is the followin:
Belief that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
That He was born of a virgin.
That we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Christ (we cannot earn salvation, it is a gift given freely from God).
Belief in the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit; one God, three parts).
Aw, you're no fun.
Ok, I lean toward Calvinism. My biggest challenge to this is, why would He choose me?
Yeah, no kidding. You of ALL people.
Maybe a better question is 'why NOT you?'
Thanks for that.
You understand tho that (regardless if it's selection/election or not) that the journey wasn't in a day. The moment I surrendered was instant; but the trip was a long one.
Yes, I understand that.
So assuming, for discussion sake, that he chooses people, how does it work if someone 'falls from grace'? (I think I'm using that right.) Would it be generally agreed upon that that person wasn't really meant to follow God in the first place, even if for a time he thought he was?
I'm getting annoying, aren't I? No really, you can say it. I'm starting to get on my own nerves.
Quit buggin yourself :)
The Calvinist view is that authentic Believers cannot fall from grace. This view is held by Baptists among others. Armenians (not the country btw) believe that you can fall from grace. Episcopals and others share this view.
I believe once saved always saved. Has the Enemy messed w/ my mind about this? (at first he did).
What a joyless burden it must be to believe that you can fall.
Jesus says He will lose known of those given to Him by the Father btw.
Uh..that's be "..none of those given.."
Not tryin to correct you, but I've been doin a lot of reading today, and I think you mean Arminian, with an i, as opposed to an e in Armenian. :)
So if an authentic believer can't fall from grace, then if someone does, they must not have been an authentic believer, hence not chosen by God. Right?
Here's a question for you...
What's that? I'm supposed to wait for my last question to be answered before I ask another one? Horse hockey...you can handle it.
Let's say one chooses religion, but not Christianity, and another chooses atheism. Would God frown upon one more than the other, or is it that if it's not Christianity it really doesn't matter where you stand cuz they're all equally wrong?
I never can spell that word right and spell ck is no help on it.
If you believe that you can't fall from grace, then yes.
I would say that there are probably alotta atheists closer to the truth than many in other religions. But yeah, if it's not Christ as your Savior then your outta luck. But, I think that God mourns these lost ones, not that He sits there and goes, "stupid dumb *ss*s!"
Btw, did you ck-out that site listed at MM about Obama's healin powers? Funny.
If your not burned out on your readin I'd suggest the Spurgeon Archive. It's listed on my TH blogroll.
There's alotta Scripture regardin predestination and whether or not you can "lose" your salvation. One of the first verses I memorized is this one.
"Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion, until the day of Christ Jesus." Php 1:6
Seems to suggest that sincere belief is forever.
I didn't check out the site, I just read the first poster. Good grief. Really.
I'll have to take a looksee.
You're comment about atheists possibly bein closer to the truth is interesting. Some time when you're not so tired, maybe you'll care to elaborate. (Amazing Kreskin in the house.)
I've checked that site out c/o your blogroll. I'll look into it more. Burned out on reading? Never!
I'll elaborate now.
Those who have traveled down false paths (most of which are laid by the Devil) are being misled. They're learnin things that could be hard to unlearn (think Master Yoda).
An example could be painting. Often, when I've hired someone who's painted before, their methodology, skills and whatnot are all wrong. Alotta times it's easier for me to teach someone to do it the way I want it done when they've never painted before.
Also, an atheist (who truth be told are really agnostics) are actually more open-minded. It's the die-hard atheists, who embrace their atheism like a religion, that are more difficult.
Ahhh, so by saying "closer to the truth" you mean 'easier to persuade'. What if there's no teaching, and it just is what it is? Then I'm guessin it doesn't much matter. Or taking it to a personal level, would you rather deal w/ someone who has a faith not of your own, or none at all?
So much for Kreskin.
You sure you didn't mean Ah Ha! instead a ahhh.
First of all, I can't save anyone. Only He can. What you refer to as persuasion I call witnessin.
I like talkin about objections to belief in Christ w/ you because you ask good questions and it makes me do two things: search for answers and prepares me for others who have objections. Seems like a win/win scenario to me cause I'm thinkin we both benefit.
My brief experience as a witness is w mostly w/ people who have no belief at all; not w/ those of another faith.
Wow,
Tough stuff to get through. Here's a few scriptures:
"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Galatians 5:4)
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (Hebrews 6:4-6)
"Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position" (2 Peter 3:17)
I think these scriptures show that it is possible to be 'saved' or 'in God's Grace' or whatever you want to call it and lose your position. If not, I don't think Paul, the Hebrew writer and Peter would have brought it up. I believe that you can be cleansed of your sins and fall away. Not just struggle or leave for a little while and come back, but truly leave God altogether, and lose the salvation that you were given. I think the 'once saved always saved' attitude is dangerous, because it means we're not accountable for our sins, and Paul is clear about this attitude in Romans 6.
Next I'll try to address some of the other points from today.
I don't want you to ever feel like I'm intentionally tricking you into an "ah ha". That's really not what I'm trying to do. I like talking to you about it too, cuz I do learn a lot. But to me, that's as important as learning more about you. Because I think I happened to stumble onto a friend that means more to me than what I can learn religiously.
"Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life." (Philippians 4:3 NIV)
"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.(Revelation 13:8 NASB)
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.(Revelation 17:8 NASB)
Now for the two Revelation scriptures, I used the NASB becuase the NASB is a little truer in most cases to the original writing, though usually harder to read. These are a few scriptures that make me believe that God already knows what we are going to do. The names of those who will be saved were written in the book of life from the beginning of creation. I think this is because as Reck mentioned, God is in the past, present and future all at the same time. I don't believe these scriptures are a case for predestination, though I could understand that argument from a logical perspective. But God is a loving God who truly wants everyone to make it to heaven.
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
God wants everyone to go to heaven, but He knows our hearts and what we will do. He has known since the creation of the world.
Hi Nestor,
Thought we threw enough out there to snag you into some good commentary. I was lookin forward to it.
gna.
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand," John 10:28
God's word cannot contradict itself. But a quick read of the Scripture you listed compared to the verses I did it would seem so.
What exactly does fall from grace mean here. In Galatians Paul is speakin about circumcision (works). Don't you think it's possible that the reference to "falling from grace" means the present experience of grace. We are told our position is secure.."And you were also included in Christ , when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are in God's possesion.." Eph 1:13-14
Pretty clear cut here.
I know from personal experience that when I willfully transgress (sin) the fellowship I experience w/ God is broken. But through repentance of my sins He always restores that fellowship.
It would seem to me that the dangerous thing would be to doubt that God's sovereign grace could fail to save His chosen.
I understand your feelings regarding the danger of havin a cavalier attitude when it comes to "once saved always saved". This is a common criticism of Calvinism. That those who are saved can then go do what ever the hell they want w/out consequences. I don't believe that those who do this are truely saved, because I doubt their original repentance and belief was sincere.
But really, this is an argument (mean that in a good way) we've had before. Certainly we both can't be right and I don't know that it matters that much.
gn L
Linda,
Yeah, I haven't been snagged in much commentary lately. I've been kind of busy and trying to take a little time away from the computer. Sometimes I need to just unplug.
Clearly I do, too. Hey I'm post 100! (see?)
(Sorry R. Was feelin a little lonely and it showed. There really oughtta be a way to take a post back. :) )
Linda,
Do you want me to delete one???
Linda,
Carmen and I were talking and it made me think. I feel like most of your perception of what it is to be a Christian comes from your experiences with friends, acquaintances and just what average people on TV or anywhere in the world say. But truly, it's not what Reck says, what I say or what anyone other than what Jesus says, and what the bible says. If you want to know what it means to be a Christian, read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts. To be a Christian is to be a follower of Jesus. To follow in his steps, and to do what He did. Reck and I are not perfect so we are going to make mistakes. If you read the gospels, you will see Jesus who didn't make mistakes. To be a Christian is to follow Him. Acts is the story of His disciples and their best efforts to follow through on what Jesus taught them. I think if you want to get the basics, that's where you'll find it.
Heard a good analogy about bein (not just intellectual belief, living it) a Christian. Can't remember who said it tho.
It basically went...
Imagine goin to Niagara Falls and watchin a guy push a wheel barrow above the falls on a rope, day after day. He never falls.
After awhile you begin to believe that he's gonna be able to do it successfully every time.
One day he walks up to you and asks, "do you think I can push this wheel barrow across the falls on that rope w/out fallin?"
You answer yes.
Then he asks you to get in the wheel barrow.
Getting in is bein a Christian.
N,
Nah...I'll save that nifty feature for another time I have no filter. I have confidence in myself.
Points well taken reg Paul and the fellas. It just sounds like a lot of work and I'd rather talk to you guys. ;)
R,
So basically you gotta be ballsy, nuts and trusting? :)
Well, considerin Peter asked to be crucified upside down; I'd say yeah, ballsy, nuts and trusting 'bout cover it.
I found this interesting....
The other night channel surfing, I came across an Oprah show. It was about a book, and then a movie based on the book, called "You Can Heal Yourself". I didn't see the whole show, but the general premise was healing through loving yourself.
They talked to a woman who was on the edge of suicide because her son had died, and her feeling his presence and helping her through the pain. It was about forgiving yourself and affirmations you can tell yourself like, 'the world is conspiring in my favor', and 'I love and accept myself'.
This led me to a "schizophrenic" thought process. My first reaction was, 'don't you people get that that's God? You think it's about YOU, but that's God at work, not you.' Then my thoughts swicthed to 'don't religious people get that it's the MIND, and not God? That positive thinking can do the same thing for them?'
Just thought it was interesting stuff.
This process is a battle for you isn't it Linda? I'm glad that you are out there questioning, looking for answers. Most people don't even look. It is commendable that you are out there trying to find answers and asking questions.
Is that your really nice way of saying 'enough already'? ;)
Well, I think it's an interesting subject and an important one. When the majority of the planet disagrees with you on something, that something deserves attention.
Thanks.
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