A discussion my wife and I were having got me to thinking. I will take a break from my "What's Wrong with America" series and get into something I feel is a problem with mainstream Christianity. It is Grace: Out of control.
"The LORD detests differing weights, and dishonest scales do not please him." (Proverbs 20:23)
I work evenings, which doesn't usually create a problem with church, but our church (and the San Antonio church) had a marriage retreat in Fredericksburg this weekend. We didn't plan on going because my wife was going to run in the marathon, which unfortunately didn't happen. But because of the marriage retreat, service was moved to 6 PM, while I was working. As my wife was telling me about service, this scripture came up in our conversation and I had a moment where something clicked in me. I've often tried to think, well I'll follow the bible because that's what God asks us to do, I want to please God and it feels good to do the things God wants us to do. There is also the part of me that says; "If I do what God commands, I'll be rewarded in the end." Well, it is most important that I do what God commands because I love Him, but sometimes doing things to avoid negative discipline helps to get us through moments when our heart is not right.
I remember in the past and even recently thinking, I'll follow God's Word, because that's what it says, and I want to be right. But I also hoped that those who don't can still get by. I realized though, that this scripture about differing weights applies not only to us in our dealings with others, but also to God in his dealings with us. Much like it is unfair for illegal immigrants to be given rights greater than citizens or legal immigrants, it is not right for God to show favor on those who are unworthy, no matter how much He loves them.
So where did my thought process go? Modern day Christianity talks about grace incessantly. You see the preachers with the 'Joel Osteen smile', saying; "God loves you, and there are no limits to His grace." (which is true) Then the preacher will say something like, "Pray Jesus into your heart and you will be saved!" Excuse me, but I missed that scripture. Maybe it isn't in the bibles I have.
My bible says things like; "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'" (John 3:5-7)
It also says; "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)
So Jesus says you can't enter God's Kingdom without being baptized, and Peter says your sins are forgiven at baptism. Therefore if you are not baptized your sins are not forgiven and you can't enter God's Kingdom. So why are there so many scriptures about grace? What I believe is this. Paul, who wrote most of the letters in the New Testament, was writing to Christians who were getting some things wrong. The Judaizers in many of the churches were trying to make the Gentiles in to 'Jews for Jesus'. Paul was trying to say; 'Hey, you're saved by grace, not the law!' He wasn't saying that baptism doesn't wash your sins away. He just didn't make a big deal out of it because he was writing primarily to Christians. (whose sins had already been washed away) Like Jesus' commands in Revelation to the seven churches, these people had already been cleansed of their sin, and Paul was instructing them on how to remain in Christ's love.
What this has transmogrified into in the 20th and 21st centuries though is this; you are saved by grace and baptism is merely symbolic.
Paul says of baptism; "Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—because anyone who has died has been freed from sin." (Romans 6:3-7)
I don't see this as symbolic. Paul is backing up what Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3, and what Peter says in Acts 2. Baptism is necessary and is what washes away our sins. Once we begin living the Christian life we have to remember that we are not saved by following the Mosaic Law, or by being circumcised. We need to have a loving heart that is willing to obey God's commands. However, that doesn't mean minimizing the importance of baptism. Mainstream Christianity has relegated baptism to a symbol, little more than a cross on a necklace. We must not ever forget that God's grace is what saves us, because we are not worthy to enter God's Kingdom of our own merit. However, we also must not ever forget that we are saved and cleansed of our sins not by a prayer that was developed in the 18th century (and a misuse of the letter to the Church of Laodicea) but by baptism as commanded by Jesus, and reinforced by the apostles.
39 comments:
Well, you must have known I'd be commentn on this post. Nest, I respesct your beliefs. But I believe His grace is sufficient. I also see the importance of baptism (like communion); I don't however believe it is a requirement for salvation.
While we both (in the past) have sited pertinent Scripture to back up our beliefs rgardn baptiism I think that long-term study of the different meanings of baptism is needed. I certainly don't make the claim of scholarship in this area.
BUT, how does one explain (and defend) the requirement of baptism for salvation in the light of this..."Two other men, both criminals, were also led with Him to be executed." Luke 23:32.."One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at Him: 'Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us.' But the other criminal rebuked him. 'Don't you fear God,' he said, 'since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what are deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.' Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me in Your kingdom.' Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.'" Luke 23:39-43
How could this criminal be saved w/out being baptised?
Reck,
David, Abraham, Jacob, Hezekiah, etc. were not baptized. However, they were under the old covenant of Judaism. The new covenant came at Pentecost (Acts 2) when Peter says, 'Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.' The criminal on the cross would have been subject to the old covenant.
I should really leave this to others, but what fun would that be? I know I don't have to preface this with how much I respect you and/or your beliefs, right? Good.
"...doing things to avoid negative discipline helps to get us through moments when our heart is not right."
A wonderful arguement for religion. But we who have none get thru those moments, as well.
"...we are saved and cleansed of our sins, not by a prayer that was developed in the 18th century, but by baptism as commanded by Jesus and reinforced by the apostles."
So I'm to believe that we're saved (among other things), not by a prayer from the 18th century, but by being immersed in a trough of water by a 21st century man who deems himself worthy? You understand how this can sound to a non-religious person, right? If the creator of our entire universe is gonna send people from Earth,to eternal misery due to a lack of an immersion in water...then it leaves me more perplexed than ever.
Of course, looking at it from your perspective, it's about what's in the Bible and how that Bible is interpreted, not how crazy it sounds to others. How it sounds isn't your concern, what it says is. I get it...never mind.
See? You don't even have to respond to me! I'll respond to myself given the time! :)
Actually Linda, you would probably be baptized by a woman. ;) Unless of course your husband baptized you.
About it sounding crazy to people who don't believe, I guess so. But there are plenty of reasons for it. Much like Isaac, Joshua, David and others had similarities to Jesus and they played a smaller role of 'savior' for Israel, the flood, (Genesis 6-8) the crossing of the Red Sea, (Exodus 14)and the crossing of the Jordan (Joshua 3)all have similarities and play a smaller role of baptism.
Interestn response.
Ok, 'bout to get "Hill Country" blunt :)
Matt 9
"When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.'...But so that you know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins..."
Prior to Pentecost.
Mark 5 (not Speed Racers car btw)
"Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering...Don't be afraid; just believe."
Prior to Pentecost
Luke 7 "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel."
Prior to Pentecost
John 6 "Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.'...Jesus said to them, 'I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread from heavan. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.'"
Prior to Pentecost
The point I'm (attempting) to make is that it is faith that saves.
As far as to when the New Covenant was established, it was prior to Pentecost.
Luke 22:20 "In the same way, after the supper He took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the New Covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you."
Mark 14:24 "This is the blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many."
Matt 26:27-28 "...Drink from it all of you. This is My blood of the Covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
How could there be an exception for this one man (the thief on the cross next to Jesus)? The New Covenant was already established.
Having studied the Gospel of John I wanted to comment on John 3:5-7.
Certainly there is alot a debate c/o , "no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit". The debate centers around "born of water". Whlie I can't remember all of the different interpretations, I do recall some.
1) refers to the ministry of John the Baptist (can't recall why tho) 2) natural birth
3) baptism w/ water
Obvivously you believe it's #3.
My take on it is it's natural birth (most in our Bible Study disagreed w/ me as I recall). Because I believe that God works covenantly I see verse 5 to mean "born of a woman". To me, baptism is a New Covenant sacrament, just like circusision was an Old Covenant one. Certainly we can agree that circumsion was not a requirement for salvation in the OT.
In retrospect I could see how an arguement could be made that the New Covenant wasn't in effect until the actual crucifixion. So I suppose that the thief could possibly be covered by the Old Covenant. However, that raises a host of other questions as to how he (the thief) was able to fulfill his duties (to the Law) while bein crucified.
Nothing personal, but ya'll need to be saved from your brainwashing. Your brains are washed with the words of a book (of fiction, IMHO.)
Something we do agree on..."The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spititually discerned." 1Cor 2:14
Nestor -
> I will take a break from my "What's Wrong with America" series ...
Since of course you were about to talk about the Democrats, but you know you can't really come up with anything about the Democrats (other than some of them are attempting emulation of Republican'ts) that you know I won't catch you on.
Kudos to you for recognizing that you'll be licked, all over if/when you decide to "straw man" Democrats. (Firesign Theatre)
Reck -
> Something we do agree on..."The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit ...
What we don't agree on, is that what you're accepting (as fact) is actually from the Spirit. I say that what you so readily believe is BS, and certainly doesn't come from the Spirit. In fact, I believe that what you (and Nestor) believes comes from the "anti-Christ".
Stan,
You don't know about that which you speak. If you did you would tremble.
Stan,
I am taking a break from my series becuase I write on my blog what is on my heart, and this was on my heart. Don't worry I will break down liberalism. I paused because I didn't know where to start, and this post came to me. Don't worry, you'll get your chance to say straw man, red herring and blue falcon.
I see God's kindom as those prior to Israel who loved and served God, Physical Israel (God's people from Jacob through the crucifixion), and the Spirtual Kingdom of God which comes at Pentecost. Physical Israel truly ends with the crucifixion, but since the Spirtual Kingdom doesn't come until 50 days later, I believe that the Old Covenant applied for a little longer, until at least the Spiritual Kingdom took place.
About your comments about Jesus forgiving sins, He could do that, because he knew their hearts. Since he forgave their sins they wouldn't need to offer their sacrifices at the temple.
About circumcision in the Old Covenant, it wasn't required for Gentile believers, but it was required for Jews. The story of Moses' children comes to mind.
I'm going to put together a bunch of scriptures that show that Spiritual Israel (God's Spiritual Kingdom) comes at Pentecost, which ends the Old Covenant.
Mornin Nest,
I'm glad our (bloggn) relationship is secure enough to have these type a "debates". Really tho, this discussion (as important as it is) matters little in the end; our destinies are secure in Christ. He will never forsake us.
"The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold." Pslam 18:2
Having never really studied Pentecost I look forward to your comments.
C/o Jesus forgiving their sins because He knew their hearts; isn't that the New Covenant? Really tho, it was faith (belief) that brought about righteousness, even in the OT.
"Abram believed in the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness." Gen 15:6
"...but the righteous will live by his faith." Hab 2:4
"Does God give you the Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the Law, or because you believe what you heard?"
Gal 3:5
"The Scripture forsaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the Gospel in advance to Abraham: All nations will be blessed through you. So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."
Gal 3:8-9
Isaiah 2:1-4
Predicts that in the last days the Spiritual Kingdom will be established, all nations will flock to it, and the Word will go out from Jerusalem.
Fulfillment: Last Days (Acts 2:17)
All Nations (Acts 2:5)
Jerusalem (Acts 2:5)
Daniel 2:44
After interpreting Nebechadnezzar's dream, Daniel says God will set up a Kingdom that will endure forever during the reign of the Roman Kings (Emperors).
Fulfillment:
Eternal Kingdom (Acts 2:37-42)
Daniel 7:18
After interpreting his own dream, which speaks again of the 4 kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome) it says the saints will possess the Kingdom forever.
Fulfillment: Possess forever (Acts 2:37-42)
Matthew 3:1-6
John says the Kingdom is near.
Only a few years prior to Pentecost
Matthew 4:17
Jesus says the Kingdom is near.
Only a few years prior to Pentecost
Mark 9:1
Some standing there will see the Kingdom come with power
Fulfillment:
Some of them-Judas had died.
With Power-(Acts 2:1-4)
John 3:1-7
Entered by new birth (baptism)
Baptism Acts 2:38
Luke 17:20-21
Kingdom is within you.
Gift of the Spirit Acts 2:38
Matthew 16:13-19
Peter has the keys, The Kingdom will be built on the Rock that Jesus is the Christ. (also 1 Corinthians 3:11)
Peter Acts 2:14,38
Luke 23:50-51
Joseph of Arimathea was still waiting for the Kingdom after Jesus died.
Luke 24:44-49
Repentance and forgiveness of sins preached to all nations beginning at Jerusalem. They are told to stay in Jerusalem until they are clothed with power.
Repentance, forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38
Oh sure, use a bunch a Scripture to make your point ;)
That's alot to digest (and look up). When I get back today (off to work I go) I'll study these verses in more depth.
Later.
Reck, a CINO IMHO, attempts the politics of fear -
> You don't know about that which you speak. If you did you would tremble.
Nestor -
> Don't worry I will break down liberalism.
"Go ahead and give it to me" - Tom Petty
I can't wait. ;-)
Come on, Nestor. "Hit me with your best shot, Fire a WAY!" (Pat Benatar)
Linda,
I realized I only answered half of your post. I missed the negative discipline part. What I mean is this; as a Christian, I have to obey what God has commanded and its generally not hard. If you love God most things, even if they are hard, can come naturally. However, sometimes my heart is not in it. We need to do the right things for God because it is our heart to do it, but sometimes if we do what we're supposed to do because; 'Man if I don't I'm going to let God down or it'll have this negative effect in my life, etc.' Sometimes our heart will come around and we'll get excited about it. It usually happens quickly, but not always.
I guess I wasn't referring to things like paying bills or even being nice to people. It was more about spiritual things like avoiding things that cause you to sin, doing things like sharing my faith with strangers, giving to homeless people when I feel the prompting, and not questioning it.
"Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins." (James 4:17)
This scripture hopefully explains what I was trying to talk about and I probably could have come up with it sooner and saved 15 minutes of my time, and a few of yours. Anyway, hopefully it's a little more clear now what I meant.
I do understand, thanks for re-addressing me.
I guess what I seem to come back to is this: we just don't know what the truth is regarding a creator. We may think we know, but really we don't. There's no way for anyone to truly know for a fact that every single line that made it into the Bible is inspired by God. You can choose to believe it, you can have faith in it, but that doesn't make it factual.
And I'm not trying to say "prove it", cuz that's silly. No one can prove anything reg. this matter imo. Faith in God makes people feel good, gives them purpose. You may see it as more than that, but that's just how you see it, it doesn't make it true. Do you get where I'm coming from? So following the Bible literally is tough for me to understand. I get that it feels right, but for some it feels wrong, so who's to really know? I dunno, that's just where I am right now.
Linda,
I think there is no way to know for sure if the bible is true unless you live it, and are surrounded by people who live it. That was what first attracted me to getting to know God. I saw people who were different than anyone else I had ever met. They didn't drink excessively, they didn't smoke, (I didn't smoke either) they didn't joke about sex, and didn't belittle their husband/wife for the sake of humor...and they were having a good time! That's what attracted me to God. Then I began to live what the bible teaches. I'm by no means perfect, but as you live the bible, it changes your life in ways unimaginable.
Then it helps to be surrounded by those who are living it, because when it gets hard, and it will, you have people who truly care about you to lean on. I'm not saying you can't have those relationships without God, but in my experience, I haven't had a relationship like that. I've had friends who would willingly die for me before, but there is something different about my relationships in Christ.
That's interesting, and it brings me to this then. (btw, I'm not arguing w/ you - we know where each other stands...it's more or less a friendly interchange of views.)
So firstly, I think just because one lives the bible and it changes their lives, still doesn't make what's IN the Bible true. What's true is their life changed because they're living in a manner that makes them happier. A support for this idea is other religions that are not the "true" religion. Those people live their version of the Bible (JWs) or Koran or whatever and have the same life changing experiences Christians have. And because their lives are changed, they believe their religion is true. See my point?
I don't get how you can say their views are wrong, when their proof they're right is the same as yours.
And because I don't think there's any way to truly know, I think it puts us all on more of an even playing field when it comes to God's grace, if there is such a thing.
And I'll add this...I surely can appreciate aspiring to living better, and I'm all about life changing experiences. (I wouldn't mind havin one myself.)I'm just not sure if I'm able to go that route. Like I said before, you can't make yourself believe something. At least I don't know how to do that. But you never know, I'm a whole lot more open to it than I was before, so there's that.
After reviewing the Scripture that you listed I have some questions.
What do you believe the Kingdom of Heaven to mean/be?
Do you think that it's possible that baptism could mean "Spiritual" baptism?
As far as the OT prophesies you listed, what do you believe they apply to (the Gospel, the Second Coming, Pentecost ect)?
The reason for these questions is because I'm trying to better understand the basis for the references you listed.
Shalom.
Linda,
I'm glad you're more open to it. I'm not sure I can explain it much better. For my wife and I, we didn't have any real friends. Most of our friends were in bad marriages or had issues in one way or another and we didn't want that to affect us. We went to church with the intention of meeting people who were normal and had good relationships. We found so much more. I didn't realize it at first. I just studied with some of the brothers, and read on my own. I saw their lives and thought that they had many of the things that I wanted; good marriages, happy families and overall they were just nice people who had something that I couldn't put my finger on. I figured that if I tried to live the way the bible said, maybe I would pick up some of their traits. But things changed in much different ways than I expected, and my life became much better. Now the transition wasn't all easy, but it was right. I hope that makes sense.
Reck,
I look at God's Kingdom as His people throughout the ages from the beginning; Adam, Seth, Noah, Abraham, etc. Then to the physical Kingdom of Israel beginning with Jacob and ending at Pentecost. The spiritual Kingdom of Israel begins at Pentecost and lasts for all eternity.
The scriptures in Isaiah and Daniel gave clues to when, where, and how the Spiritual Kingdom would come. John, Jesus and Joseph of Arimathea also give clues to when, where and how the Kingdom would come. Acts 2 is the fulfillment of all of these prophesies.
Physical Israel had very strict laws regarding holiness because they were literally God's people, what would be called today disciples. That is why the penalties were so severe, and everytime someone sinned, blood was shed. An animal had to be sacrificed. But the blood of animals isn't sufficient for the forgiveness of sins (but until Jesus came it was all they had) and it took the perfect sacrifice, Jesus, to be the fulfillment of the old covenant. Jesus' blood is constantly washing our sins away, once we have commited our lives to Him. When the Spirit is poured out at Pentecost on the disciples, the Spiritual Kingdom of Israel begins.
As far as baptism, I'm not sure which scripture you're referring to. If you mean John 3:1-7, I am confident Jesus is talking about immersion in water. Nicodemus asks about going back into his mother to be 'born again' (physically), and Jesus says, born of water and Spirit. Paul in Romans 6 talks about dying to sin at baptism. He says you die to your old life, and when you die, sin no longer has a grip on you and you are born again. Once you are born again of water and spirit, you are then under grace, free from the slavery of sin. Hope that clarifies my points, but let me know if you have more questions.
I understand better now. I agree w/ most of what you said (Kingdom of Heaven, how our sins are covered by His grace).
We still disagree on baptism, but that's ok. I guess I don't understand how if baptism washes away sins, one wouldn't have to be continually baptized.
Regardles of that tho, I sense the Spirit in your words, and deeply enjoy our convos.
Peace brother.
Yous guys are being distracted by a book (of fiction, IMHO), IMHO.
Classic red-herring, you're being fooled by, IMHO.
Offerings for sin needed to be given regularly because the blood of bulls, goats, doves, etc is insufficient. But it is the perfect blood of Christ that washes us in baptism. If you look up 'once for all', it gives a number of references, 1 in Romans and about 5 in Hebrews. The Hebrew writer talks at length about how Jesus died once. Baptism doesn't need to be something you do every week, because at baptism we are freed from the slavery of sin. We are being cleansed by the blood of Christ continually. It might help to read Hebrews 6-10, if not the whole book, because there is a continuity there that one scripture alone does not cover.
Thought of you guys when I read this today. It was part of a review for "The Case for Christ" book.
"If faith is faith, why is it necessary to make a "case" at all? One believes for compelling moral, personal, and spiritual reasons. By nature, faith does not need proof; it isn't subject to logical necessity. It is a matter of heart and soul."
Linda -
> ... By nature, faith does not need proof; it isn't subject to logical necessity. It is a matter of heart and soul."
Certainly, but just because there's faith in something, doesn't make it so.
By it's very nature, faith (believing in (fill in the blank)) is not necessarally false, just most likely that it's false (because it hasn't been tested by the test of logic.)
If you have so much faith in (fill in the blank), then Y are you so afraid of that faith being tested by the test of logic????
It doesn't matter if you test it by logic. I've covered this before. You can't apply logic to God. Logically, God and his plan for salvation don't make sense, but that doesn't make it untrue.
"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." (1 Corinthians 1:20-25)
Nestor attempts to distort reality -
> It doesn't matter if you test it by logic. ...
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